1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Lighting Chinese led

Discussion in 'General Aquarium Discussion' started by tebo, Jan 29, 2014.

Welcome to Algae Scrubbing Join our community today
  1. tebo

    tebo Member

    At present such are Chinese led, the price difference is huge compared to luxeon and create

    spoke of all spectra in general

    Greetings now waiting experiences
  2. Turbo

    Turbo Does not really look like Johnny Carson Staff Member Site Owner Multiple Units! Customer

    Generally, you get what you pay for. Chinese LEDs will say they are 660nm Deep Red, but if you put them up to a spectrometer and have them analyzed, they are all over the place. Some will be 640, 630, 700, etc. Most people can't tell the difference. To some extent, it doesn't matter, having a mixture might actually give you a bit of diversity. But if you end up with a mixture of too many in one area, say for instance a lot of 620-630nm, then you might not grow algae very well because of the intensity difference, and it might be hard to troubleshoot this as being the problem.

    Luxeon LEDs are separated by something called a Bin Code. This means they are individually tested and then placed in a separate location along with others of similar characteristics. So if you order from a reputable supplier who actually 1) is able to order a specific bin for you and 2) actually orders that bin for you and 3) actually gives you that bin, then you will get LEDs that will have very consistent and reliable output characteristics.

    Then there is the manufacturing process. The quality control process has a LOT to do with 1) how consistent the LEDs will be 2) how long they will last 3) how their spectral output will change over time. The more reputable companies will have a better track record, and this is what you pay for: quality.

    The bottom line is that you get what you pay for. There are good chinese LEDs, and there are super cheap china LEDs.

    My personal position on this is that you can buy quality and buy once, or you can go cheap and save 50% and roll the dice. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. In 2-3 years, everything will probably be better anyways.

    PS: Philips Luxeon ES 660nm Deep Red LEDs are made in China.
  3. ddalgleish

    ddalgleish Member Customer

    The Chinese LED's I bought from CREE work well on my main display (http://www.hero-ledstore.com/). Now provided, I bought LEDs for coral and not algae (white and blue LEDs) it could be a different story for reds but CREE seems to be an accurate manufacturer. And buying CREE parts from China is 1/2 the price! Also, if you are looking for effective power distribution, buy a DC power supply that provides say 50-75 watts from digikey, then run your LEDs through a "flexblock" (from luxdrive) which is also available from digikey. The main point being that you can use one power supply with multiple flex blocks that power different LED circuits!
  4. Turbo

    Turbo Does not really look like Johnny Carson Staff Member Site Owner Multiple Units! Customer

    Cree from China is still Cree, when most people reference "chinese LEDs" they are usually referring to the generic knock-off LEDs, the super cheap 'bargain' ones. There are lots of china Cree sellers and those are generally OK, as well as Nitchia and Bridgelux, etc, the LEDs are fabricated under good quality conditions. It's the no-name brands you have to beware of. Cree does not make 660nm Deep Red and they have no intention of getting into that market either - I toured the Cree factory in Racine, WI last year and I asked :)

    Just for clarity of anyone reading, the flexblock drivers are a constant current source not a DC/constant voltage source. I'll have to read up more on those...
  5. tebo

    tebo Member

    thanks turbo was whatt i wanted to here,,, I know the difference of good bean but I wanted some more details of what goes on paper
  6. Peter

    Peter Member Trusted Member Customer

    I am using Evolution LED unit, and I can't be more satisfied.
    tebo likes this.
  7. Ace25

    Ace25 Member Trusted Member

    Wait a minute.. Cree LEDs from China CAN be just as bad as generic LEDs from there. The reason being is Cree only sells them the diodes, it is up to the company to mount them to PCBs/Stars, and that is where the majority of failures come from. The actual emitter is Cree quality, but the overall light can be just as bad as a generic Chinese LED if it was assembled in the same plant. For me, it isn't worth it spending countless hours of my time researching which Chinese plant is better than the other... once I take into account my time, the LEDs become 2x as much money coming from China compared to buying from a trusted/reputable US based company if I want to be sure I am receiving the same quality.
  8. tebo

    tebo Member

    Another question regarding this issue, we talk about various configurations and the stakes regarding armed LED and the display

    the number of led, talking about luxeon or cree per square cm seria

    example: how to calculate the number of LEDs for aquarium say 100x 60 cm

  9. tebo

    tebo Member

  10. there are many variables. How deep is your tank? What do you have in it? Do you want the same light as if you were using a metal halide or what? What look do you want, lots of blue or what?

    this supplier has a good write up on it. Look under their FAQ's - LED's for the Reef Tank. If you scroll down in the article you can find a chart on size and tank depth vs. equiv. metal halide lighting. https://reefledlights.com/ledmytank/
  11. tebo

    tebo Member

    Thanks man, I going to read
  12. Ace25

    Ace25 Member Trusted Member

    That article doesn't seem to take 'spectrum' into account. Once you take that into account, and design a light around it things become much more confusing. As I have proven for years now, 50w of LED light can be = to 500w of MH. It is not possible to compare PAR to PAR between LEDs vs any other light because of the spectrum. What I have found with LEDs (using Royal blues and whites) is that as far as corals are concerned, 50w of LED light actually puts out MORE proper spectrum light than a 400w 10k MH. From my years of testing, 50 PAR at the sandbed with certain LED combinations is the same as 200 PAR from other light, and that is because the 50 PAR from LEDs is mostly in the proper spectrum for coral photosynthesis, while the 200 PAR has most of the light outside the useful spectrum for photosynthesis.

    When I first got into high output LEDs, I didn't know the importance about spectrum, so I made my LED light to match my MH PAR for PAR, after the first week, 1/2 of my corals were nuked. It took me about a year of trial and error to finally realize how little PAR is needed with LEDs to equal T5 and MH light.

    IMO, for a 100x60cm tank, 24 LEDs would be minimum, 36 LEDs would be max. As far as depth of the tank, that is where optics come into play, and 60 degree is the most common (and best IMO).
  13. tebo

    tebo Member

    Ace25 really thank you very much, the kind of answers I'm looking for, I have already experienced some time, but I need more opinions

    Being a bit more specific, I have the belief that it is better to handle a 2:1 RB: NW and for each 23 "x 23" 4uv and 2 cyan

    Then ace, you tell me that for a 100x60 aquarium could put a maximum of 42 led, which would be divided into 24 RB, 12NW, and 2 cyan, 4 uv

    You seem correct this setting for sps corals

    Greetings and very grateful for your help
  14. Ace25

    Ace25 Member Trusted Member

    Personally, I am not a fan of the 2:1 RB:W ratio because it puts way to much 455nm (royal blue) light into a tank, which causes problems. I would actually go with a 1:1:1 ratio of 420/475 (cool blue)/Warm Whites as the primary light ratio, then add 4x 505nm cyans, 4x 630nm reds, and 4x near UV on a separate dimmable driver. The 1:1:1 ratio will provide all the light needed for coral photosynthesis. Any of the cree white LEDs put out as much, or more 'royal blue' light as any 20k MH bulb without needing to add more royal blues. We (diy'ers) used royal blues years ago because that was the only deep blue LED that came close to mimicking 420nm T5 actinics, but today we have 420nm LEDs, so there is no need to use royal blues as an 'actinic' replacement in my opinion.

    How I would build it, I would use 4 meanwell dimmable drivers, put 12x 420nm LEDs on one, 12x cool blues on one, 12x warm whites on one, and then your 4x cyans, 4x reds, and 4x near UV (405-410nm) on one driver. Since near UV/cyan/red LEDs usually only handle up to 700mA, and even that is more than likely too much of those colors, I think it's safe to put all 3 colors on one driver and run it no higher than 500mA (more than likely 350mA will be enough), any more and the cyan color starts to over saturate the color of the water. A little cyan and red color really does make a reef tank 'POP' that much more, so I would recommend those colors for aesthetic reasons. You can certainly add more than 36 LEDs and just dim them down to your liking, I was just saying as far as SPS coral requirements go on your size tank, a 2:1 ratio like you said (I ran that combo for years and it does work), or a 1:1:1 ratio like I said will both provide more than enough light for even the most light demanding corals from my experience.
  15. Turbo

    Turbo Does not really look like Johnny Carson Staff Member Site Owner Multiple Units! Customer

    Ace that is some great advice. I think it would be worthwhile to get this kind of configuration standardized for various tank sizes and depths...any interest in putting together a post that I can sticky in this sub-forum, or even make an "ask ace" subforum? Because I have a few tanks that I would like to convert over to LED, I just haven't been willing to make the jump yet due to time and a few other factors - like not trusting the RB:CW or similar configuration....for the reasons you state!
  16. tebo

    tebo Member

    Ace 25, grateful for your explanation, so let's get this straight,,, your opinion is very important for me, because you do, and you do to try what you say and do not talk the talk, what is actually what I look for in each answer

    Now where to buy led 420nm or the use of rapidled ranging from 410 to 420nm or hyper violet of stevesleds that are 419nm

    Sorry for so many questions, but your knowledge on this topic is of paramount importance and must be nurtured them jejejejeje

    Seria 1:1:1 420nm:475nm:WW that correct?? 4 cyan, and 4uv 4RED, the colore for certain area??

    Woow this completely changes my thoughts

    what kind of problems brings much 450nm??

    really very grateful for the time you've spent answering
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  17. tebo

    tebo Member

    Ace 25 it's more efficient the ratio 1:1:1 for corals run 700mA ???
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2014
  18. Kerry

    Kerry Member Trusted Member Customer

    I agree with the not using the 50/50 blue to white ratio. I use a little different approach but I do not have SPS. I use the 445-455nm blue and the 20,000K and 30,000K in my builds. I use a mix of about 30-40% blue to the 60-70% whites (50/50 20,000K/30,000K) I mentioned. I have thought about using some red in my next build I do in a weekend or two. I have the heat sinks and led's now I just need the time. I have a 150G long that has two braces on top so it has three holes on top to set lights. I want to make three fixtures, each having 46-50 led's each with about 40% blue and 60% white but with a couple reds so I thought maybe running 48 led's with the blue/white ratio and adding two 660nm reds to each fixture to make 50 led's for each fixture. I dont plan on having any sps except maybe birds nest anytime soon but if I do I can add more led's to the heatsink very easily. Any thoughts on this ACE?
  19. Ace25

    Ace25 Member Trusted Member

    Sorry for the delay, been a busy weekend. To answer the questions in order:

    1. Problems with too much 455nm = photo saturation/inhibition in corals, basically, you are giving corals way to much light, to the point the zooxanthallae says 'screw this, we are out of here', then you end up with bleached corals, and if it isn't fixed immediately, end with dead corals in a matter of days.

    2. 1:1:1 @ 700mA will be much more efficient, both in providing a better spectrum for corals, as well as longevity of the LEDs. Depending on the heatsink, you may not even need any extra cooling (fans). Once you reach 1000mA (1 amp), LEDs start to really cook, and the extra little output (5-10% more light for 30% more power) isn't efficient at all in regards to power usage on standard 1000mA 3w LEDs. Another plus with the 1:1:1 vs the old 2:1 ratio is you have much greater control over the spectrum and light, meaning it is much easier to make the light aesthetically pleasing while at the same time still providing proper light for corals. With the 2:1, you are limited to turning up/down 1 type of blue, or white, but when you adjust those to match for personal preference, it usually ends up being 'too much' for the corals. That was my mistake early on, trying to make my tank look exactly like a 20k radium with only RB:W, you can do it, but you end up killing the corals with too much blue. This is because a Radium MH has a broad blue spectrum, where as LEDs have very narrow spectrums in the colored LEDs (10nm max). Doing the 1:1:1 ratio will allow you do achieve the 20k MH look, without the killing effect on corals.

    3. Kerry: I think 48-50 LEDs for each section in a little too much, especially for not having any high light demanding corals, even birdsnest are what I would consider 'low light' (~100 PAR) even though they are an SPS coral. Basically, once you meet the requirements of the corals, anything extra is just extra $ for the sake of controllability and adding colors for aesthetic reasons. My first light for a 75G cube I went with 48 LEDs, and found out 12 of those LEDs were a complete waste, as I never turn my light up past 50% on any of the 4 channels. Figure each section is about a 50G tank, that would mean you would need 36 LEDs per section. I would still recommend the majority of the blue LEDs be 420nm since that spectrum is usually completely missing in white LED lights and keep the 445-455nm LEDs to a minimum (personally, if I were to add them, I would only add 2-4 out of the 36 LEDs per section).
  20. Turbo

    Turbo Does not really look like Johnny Carson Staff Member Site Owner Multiple Units! Customer

    Interesting to hear about the photo saturation issue on the coral side as well now. I had only recently started using that term per @herring_fish's recommendation, related to algae scrubbers. Probably the very same thing - trying to compare fluorescent sources to LED sources and neglecting the fact that a fluorescent source is very broad, similar to MH in that respect when comparing to LED.

    Thanks @Ace25!!

Share This Page