Quick question for any customers using one of Bud's ATS units, or Bud if you have received feedback regarding this (positive or negative). What has been the experience of going sump-less when adding an ATS? Reason being, I'm looking to add an L2 unit to my 90g cube rimless for 2 reasons - first, for nutrient export, and second as a food source (pods) for the inhabitants. I would prefer to run a top of tank mounting system for simplicity sake (pods drop right in and minimal plumbing needed) and avoid the whole needing to run a sump for a few reasons (trying to be green - less use of electricity since no need for a return pump running, if ATS does it's job I see chaeto or other macro as an unnecessary maintenance item, and a cleaner look without supply/return lines running to/from the sump). I've seen a couple pics of customer tanks running the unit right on top of the tank, and a couple with shelf mounted which I would prefer to avoid as well. Using a custom made acrylic shelf to mount it, the footprint of the L2 would fit perfect in one of the rear corners as I'm using a dual OR Arctic S-026 units over a 36x32" tank. I don't see the L2 unit as blocking any significant light to the corner it gets mounted in since my LED units throw light sideways pretty good, and even it if did I have plenty of low light corals that could call that area home. I'm currently utilizing a PWS schedule, HOB CPR Aquafuge with chaeto and HOB skimmer which keeps everything in check just fine, but I'd prefer to drop the HOB units over time and go PWS/ATS only to really clean things up look-wise. I could drill the tank (acrylic) for a sump, but that creates a very unpleasing look to the back of the tank to me, and if it's not a necessity then I'd prefer to avoid it. So - what's anyones real world experiences with going "sans sump" on a reef tank while relying on a Turbo's Aquatic ATS unit and PWS schedule to "run the show" in terms of nutrient control? Thanks in advance!!
Personally, I would drill the tank. If you don't want pipes out the back you can always drill the bottom and make an overflow box to house the overflow and return lines. Short of that, as you already know, it is a nightmare (I would say impossible) trying to make a display look 'clean' without a sump. The biggest problem I see with the L scrubbers above a display is microbubbles and light leaks, although I think Bud made something to fix the light leaks, and uses a sock for the microbubbles, but obviously a sock wouldn't work for you. The valves on the output help a lot with the bubbles but I don't believe it eliminates them completely (Bud can correct me if I am wrong).
I hear that on the impossible of a clean look - had a 75g before that was drilled and with a CL system also being built in made it was even more of a nightmare of pipes running everywhere. Even though they were on the back which wasn't really in the viewing area, I still knew what it looked like and it bugged me to no end. Being a cube it's so "out there" in terms of viewing, putting pipes anywhere on the outside make it a complete train wreck in terms of looks. It seems some of the microbubble problem can be resolved by placing a valve on loc line as close as possible to the wedge outlet. I'm ok with a few anyway, my Aquafuge grabs air as the return flows into the tank but they're quickly dissipated by the wave maker churning the water at the surface. I could drill the bottom but then it negates pretty much all of my reasons for wanting to go sumpless (energy cost of running yet another pump, more plumbing that may not be necessary if the L2 handles nutrient export, etc). If the L2 can "do it all" so to speak then I'm ok with the slight trade off being bubbles and potentially a bit of light leakage. Food for the tank = great, and nutrient export without the need to harvest chaeto as it grows as well is another benefit. A little light leak probably won't affect my tank (using black acrylic for the mount), and I can run it on a reverse schedule as I do now with my Aquafuge so it's not like it would really be viewed that much (or at least run it during the night, and part of the day while I sleep (overnight worker). I would just love to have the pods be able to fall into the display from time to time. I used a DIY ATS in the past on my 75g and it worked great, was mounted right on top of my tank but frankly looked like poop compared to a L2/3/4 unit. I know Bud mentioned in another thread that he was going to setup a similar above tank setup (and maybe no sump) and post video but I didn't see anything. I know another user was looking into going sumpless (sabbath) but never really posted any follow up in the thread to state whether he/she did or not and what the results were.
I tried it for 6 months or so as I didn't want to drill my new tank. Didn't really work out for me. Much easier to tinker with things under the tank in a sump than over or in it. In the end I bit the bullet, drilled it and reinstalled the sump. Fine now.
Which part(s) didn't work out for you? Ace mentioned a few potential issues - light spillage, bubbles. Or did you have additional negative experience that thwarted your efforts to remain sumpless? I have tons of room in the stand, nothing there (or planned there) except for electronics/wiring and 5 gallon ATO container. Adding a sump isn't a logistical problem, just a preferred method to avoid the additional maintenance if the L2 can replace it. My only other potential problem with equipment was to be my RODI ATO, but after having the ATO valve in my DIY overflow in my other tank for the past 2 years successfully I figured that would be the easiest workaround to having a 1"+ wave sloshing around the tank which would cause the valve to constantly be switching on/off and potentially not turning the ATO on until evaporation was significant. I have about a 1.5" wave in my current tank but the change in the overflow is very little (about 1/16" inch as the wave pulsates) and my ATO functions perfectly keeping salinity level throughout the day with about 3/4 gallon evap per day.
The light bleed is really a non issue. The bubble trapping/control is the main issue, but one could fashion a sort of reverse overflow tower if you will (let's call it a bubble tower) to take care of that - an open-ended tube that sticks down into the tank, into which the drain empties into. Then the issue is silencing the unit - with the valve I include, this can be achieved, but it takes up a bit of room, so this means your bubble tower is bulkier. You can do away with the valve if the noise of the drain is muffled enough to your liking with just the lid on. Depends on your noise tolerance level. But this will increase bubbles a lot, so your bubble tower needs to be that much better, or include some Poret foam or the like. One could also hide the filter sock in the bubble tower. The pump can literally hang from the input side of the scrubber, so as long as you secure it so that it won't accidentally drop, and the scrubber is supported so that it doesn't get 'pulled' into the tank bu the weight of the pump, you're good there The other issue that remains is surface skimming. To me this is the biggest issue with the sumpless tank. I built a small in-tank overflow box for my personal tank (which is the 120 with the waterfall scrubber on the corner of it, been running like that for better part of a year) and it doesn't work very good at skimming IMO, because the box is shallow (just deep enough for pump) so I don't really get a constant water level in the tank to promote skimming. If it drops too low, I get skimming to an extent but then also air sucking into the pump which fills the tank with microbubbles. So the solution is to make a deep overflow box that you drop the pump into and then put an ATO in that to maintain the water level in the overflow box and allow the surface water to get skimmed into the tank. This surface skimming promotes the overall health of the tank. If you have the surface skimming issue taken care of elsewhere, then this is a non issue. FYI my tank with the waterfall scrubber on the corner is in several of my youtube videos. the ones with the UAS test unit it is on the back right. Waterfall unit vids have it on the back left. That's how you can tell the difference. I drain into the tank via 3/4" locline and it is restrictive and I would not recommend it. The box runs about 1/3 full of water all the time, and the side drain runs all the time as well, I have it balanced for bubbles that dump into the tank but overall I don't like the top of tank version I run, no time to fix it though currently
All the above plus salt creep and the fact that the scrubber (a long horizontal which I built into the top of the tank) wasn't very efficient. Plus having to have the heater & the pump for the scrubber (which had to be cleaned out often) inside the tank. The salt creep was the worst thing though. Although that was mostly due the poor design of my scrubber than not having a sump. Sumps though allow you to more easily contain and control all these issues.
Well, decided I'm going to give it a try 'sans sump' and see how it goes. I am however going to cover my bases and put a couple safeguards in place. First, I'm going to proceed with installing an overflow in the tank which will provide the area for an L2 pump to draw from and perform surface skimming which may have a side benefit of providing extra nutrient enhanced water to the ATS since it's "skimmed" water. I'm also going to route out the area in my stand top directly under the overflow sectioned off area of the tank. This will allow me to drill the tank from underneath down the road if things don't work out without having to do a complete tear down of the system. My stand was built tall enough to comfortably sit inside do I won't have to hire a contortionist to perform the drilling. 3 quick holes and I'll have a siphon drain, emergency overflow standpipe and return flow pipe all conveniently hidden behind the overflow which will eliminate most of my original concern of keeping a clean look to the whole setup (with the exception of some loc line for the returns). The overflow can also run my ATO unit since that's how I run it now in my other tank and it performs perfect. The HOB skimmer remains the only undesirable in the equation but perhaps a simple airstone running in the bottom of the overflow with some sponge on top (but below the L2 pump to prevent it from sucking up tons of bubbles) will do the trick of aeration.
