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Turbo's Aquatics HF L4 scrubber

Discussion in 'Customer Support' started by Peter, Jul 14, 2014.

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  1. Peter

    Peter Member Trusted Member Customer

    Ok, so I have cleaned screen real good, and majority of holes are filled. When I plugged pump I observed something interesting, and realized that I am idiot. :)
    First of all I was puzzled with the fact that I am getting white algae only when I partially clean my screen, and only than I get those green patches turn white.
    When thinking about this, I was sure that it is something that is connected to partially cleaned screen, but I didn't know what.

    I have installed scrubber in that way that just a small amount of water goes away from emergency drain, in order to avoid bubbles and sound.
    Nevertheless, when screen is cleaned, water dispersion is different and than much more water is going out through emergency drain.
    As you can see, whit my limited space, my emergency drain is located in part of the sump when my skimmer is, so this water from scrubber is drained there and mixed with skimmer water going into scrubber intake pump. When I have good amount of algae, than water dispersion is changed and majority of water is drained through main drain.

    I have reorganized things a bit after realizing this, and all my water from scrubber now drains into main drain, instead of main + emergency.

    @Turbo, do you think that this may be the reason for extreme nutrient sufficiency in my case?

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Turbo

    Turbo Does not really look like Johnny Carson Staff Member Site Owner Multiple Units! Customer

    I'll have to re-read this and get back to you, so you had the main drain cranked way down, nearly closed?
     
    Peter likes this.
  3. Peter

    Peter Member Trusted Member Customer

    No, I have opened main drain so that water is drained just there, near main return pump, instead of partially drainage trough emergency drain near skimmer and scrubber intake.
     
  4. Turbo

    Turbo Does not really look like Johnny Carson Staff Member Site Owner Multiple Units! Customer

    How much water was going through the emergency drain before you changed it? 10%? 40%?
     
    Peter likes this.
  5. Peter

    Peter Member Trusted Member Customer

    Around 30%-40%, when screen is cleaned, but 5%-10% when there is good amount of algae on screen.
     
  6. Turbo

    Turbo Does not really look like Johnny Carson Staff Member Site Owner Multiple Units! Customer

    What that tells me is that your pump is experiencing a bit of head loss as growth increases. You said your pump was about 500 GPH rated so maybe after head loss about 400 GPH and then maybe you lose about 100 GPH over the growth period, I'm betting it's less than that though. It's hard to judge but 100 GPH through that side pipe would be quite a bit of flow.

    Regardless, I don't think that is the issue. There might be a slight amount of "recirculation" of water, but unless your total flow through your sump is really low, you should have a pretty good amount of water coming into the system from the tank.

    The other thing to consider is that in addition to the relatively low bioload of the tank compared to the scrubber, you also have a pretty good sized skimmer in there. If the skimmer were rated in cubes/day that would probably be on par with the scrubber (just guessing) so you have 8 cubes/day of capacity and no where near that for feeding. So I would try my previous recommendation of a shorter photoperiod on the scrubber
     
    Peter likes this.
  7. Peter

    Peter Member Trusted Member Customer

    Thank you very much. I have created photoperiod as you recommended, but I just wanted to throw some new ideas, and consult with you regarding mysterious white algae.

    Thanks again.
     
  8. Peter

    Peter Member Trusted Member Customer

    OK, so my softies are dying because of low nutrient content. :)
    My skimmer is offline for next month, and I would love to stop using scrubber at this point also, so that I have some nutrients build up. ( I have cleaned my tank much more than needed with this scrubber ) :) :) :)
    My question is, what photoperiod should I use just to maintain my screen alive?
    I would like to maintain just enough algae so that my screen don't go completely dry, and that I must go from the scratch next time. After one month I will use scrubber for sure.

    Thank you very much.
     
    Turbo likes this.
  9. Turbo

    Turbo Does not really look like Johnny Carson Staff Member Site Owner Multiple Units! Customer

    An hour per day should be good to keep it alive. Check it after a week, if it looks like it's in poor shape, make it 2 hours.
     
    Peter likes this.
  10. Peter

    Peter Member Trusted Member Customer

    Thanks Turbo a lot. I will do as you said.
     
  11. Peter

    Peter Member Trusted Member Customer

    Ok, so I really need you help with this one.
    It's not about scrubber (that worked beautifully), but with my tank itself.
    Tank is three and a half months old, and until 20 days I had good coral growth, nice colors and low Nitrates and Phospates, with just small amount of brown algae in my DT.
    Suddenly, corals started to fade away and my scrubber algae turns white.
    I am sure that this was due low bioload and gigantic filtration from my oversized scrubber and heavy oversized skimmer together.
    I guess, that filtration took out much more than needed at that point, and I am afraid that I have started cycle again.
    Majority of corals are now safe, recovering in my other reef tank, but my bubble tip remained in this tank, along with a few softies in bad shape.

    Skimmer are offline for a week now, and I am keeping my scrubber alive with three hours photoperiod per day. Algae in scrubber are alive, and not growing significantly at all.
    My Nitrates are now higher (No3 = 15ppm), and my water is cloudy during daytime for a few months (this may be connected to millions of pods in my DT). Or anything else?
    There is a lot of brown and green algae in my DT now, but I can see that brown are dying slightly while green algae takes more place.

    My question is regarded to usage of algae scrubber at this point.
    Should I use my scrubber at fullest at this point, to help reduce my Nitrates and kill DT algae?
    I am afraid that my oversized scrubber can block my cycle at this point, and remove ammonium needed for bacteria in DT.
    Is it safe to use scrubber at this point, as sole filtration?

    I really think that I should avoid using my oversized skimmer, and I would really love to use scrubber to balance my tank out.

    Thank you very much for your help.

    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]
     
  12. Ricky

    Ricky Member Trusted Member Multiple Units! Customer

    I'ts very unlikely that over sized filtration caused a cycle. But now that its over I guess we can move on.

    The scrubber relates to the amount of food you feed. If you have one fish and are feeding very little, then cut the hours of the scrubber way back. To like 4. I would run everything on a schedule. Something like this:

    Say you feed at 8pm. Then you want your coral to take advantage of your feeding overnight. So feed at 8.
    Scrubber On when display lights go off. In my case Midnight. So lets say scrubber on midnight to 4am or 6am.
    Then Skimmer on to filter any excess food. So skimmer on 8am - 3pm. Then You come home and enjoy a quiet, clean tank.

    Does that make sense to you?
     
    Peter likes this.
  13. Peter

    Peter Member Trusted Member Customer

    Thank you Ricky very much for responding.
    Yes, this makes perfect sense.
    I just can't figure out how much elements I am loosing using skimmer and how much using scrubber.
    I would be fine with just using scrubber at this point, if this relate to pulling less elements from water itself.
    My main problem is water changes, because I am not doing regular WC at all (15% for three months).
    So, how about I feed more and run just scrubber more, for example 9 hours by night, is this sounds doable in terms of good and nutrient rich environment for soft and LPS corals, while keeping Nitrates and Phospates in check?
     
  14. Turbo

    Turbo Does not really look like Johnny Carson Staff Member Site Owner Multiple Units! Customer

    @Ricky he's already running it 3 hours/day

    I just scanned through the entire thread to make sure I wasn't missing something. Let's take a closer look at the overall system.

    Thread started in mid July, so about 2 months ago. At that point, you had the tank cycled, so it was probably up and running for a few months, right? I know you told me this in e-mail but I would have to search for it, but I know the tank wasn't drilled until mid March. For sake of this post I'll assume that you filled it near the beginning of June. That puts the total tank age around 3.5 months.

    Your comment on the cloudy water would seem to indicate a bacterial bloom and possibly a pH issue. The algae outbreak is pretty severe now, especially when you compare the pics from about a month ago. I would say that these 2 things are an indicator of something being out of balance, that's usually when algae outbreaks occur. So it's kind of like you're in between a rock and a hard place, with the scrubber and skimmer running full, the scrubber was not quite operating right because of the low nutrient load. So when you cut back the scrubber and the skimmer, the tank's "set point" get shifted (meaning, out of balance).

    This article is great for perspective on a new tank setup. Go to #15

    So basically in the first 6 months of a reef tank, you are having big swings in things that we don't test for, because it's really hard to do that without a lab full of expensive equipment. Making a drastic change in filtration right in the middle of this process might have caused what you're seeing. I think I missed that you took the skimmer completely offline, and just responded to the question about dialing back the scrubber photoperiod. That's what I get for replying without reading fully. :mad:

    You can dial back a skimmer just like you can dial back a scrubber. I would put the skimmer back online and let it skim normal for a day or so (to break it back in) and then start dialing it back until it barely produces any skimmate. This will give you the benefit of aeration of the water column, plus a little skimming. Then for the scrubber, start increasing the hours but do it slowly. Increase to 4 hours/day, let it run for a week like that, then clean it and watch for the whiting. If it doesn't happen, then leave it there for a few weeks.

    The other thing I was scanning for is if you had a clean-up crew. I didn't see that you posted anything about having one. A clean-up crew is a critical part of any reef system, so you really need to have this. Some people like to mix snails and hermit crabs, I think hermits are bullies and eat the snails so my advice is to do without them. But get a bunch of snails.

    Just per your last post, do not increase the scrubber hours to 9. That is another drastic swing, and you're going back to what caused the whiting. Use the filtration that you plan to use long term, just dialed back. Going to strong scrubber-only then adding the skimmer and tweaking the scrubber is a change to the system that can result in another outbreak/imbalance, so just use them together and find a sweet spot. In the meantime, try not to chase issues around, reefkeeping is about long-term stability, so you need to let things falls into place instead of forcing them.

    Also, do you test your water parameters regularly? Alk, Cal, Mag, etc?
     
  15. Peter

    Peter Member Trusted Member Customer

    Thank you Bud a lot for this detailed explanation, you helped a lot!
    Yes, tank is 3.5 months old, you are right
    Regarding tank cloudiness, I should presume that this is bacterial bloom, but I am puzzled why this is taking so long, for months now (just over daytime).
    I have two 10G tanks just beside this 100G tank, and it seems that Ph is good in it, everything is growing like mad with great colors ( I am using same tap water for all tanks).

    I don't have hermits, but I got 6 stomatella snails back in the beginning, and now I have really good amount (around 50-70 small ones) of those snails in my tank, eating some algae film overnight.

    I can't get tests for my Alk, Cal, Mag, but I have Salifert tests for Nitrate and Phospate, and I am testing those regularly.

    I will do exactly as you said, and keep you posted, and I wish that this topic will prove helpful for some other reefers with similar issues.

    Thank you very much Bud for directions, you really helped me a lot.
     
  16. Turbo

    Turbo Does not really look like Johnny Carson Staff Member Site Owner Multiple Units! Customer

    Are these just difficult ot get in Serbia? Salifert makes these as well.

    Might be the explanation of the cloudy water:

    http://reefcorner.com/reef-database-index/hitchhiker-index/stomatella/

     
  17. Peter

    Peter Member Trusted Member Customer

    No, I could get those but it is very pricey here. I could buy those test if you think that is it absolute crucial.


    Yes, this could be explanation, but on other hand it is strange that it goes everyday daytime for months, and every single day. It must be pretty potent snails than. :)

    One other thing.
    When you suggested that I dial back my skimmer, I was thinking you are referring to put it on timer, just for number of hours daily.
    My skimmer is dialed to put out in the cup around one inch of dry skimmate per two weeks. This was the case from the start because I was aware that this skimmer is much oversized for my current bioload.
     
  18. Turbo

    Turbo Does not really look like Johnny Carson Staff Member Site Owner Multiple Units! Customer

    Alk Cal and Mag are critical to test for in a reef tank. One of these out of whack will cause all kinds of cascading issues.

    So you posted that your skimmer is offline, now I'm confused, are you using it right now or not? You can run it on a timer if the skimmer is not finicky, or you can run to skim light as you described. 1" of 2 weeks is very light skimming but I bet that skimmate is naaaasty.
     
  19. Peter

    Peter Member Trusted Member Customer

    I will get tests than, and let you know about levels.

    Yes, skimmer is offline for a week now, and scrubber is working for three hours overnight at the moment.
    Strange thing, today I can see that water is clearing up a bit, after a few months of consistent white haze all over. :)
    Nevertheless, just a little bit clearer now. :)
     
  20. Ricky

    Ricky Member Trusted Member Multiple Units! Customer

    In regards to cloudy water, It can also be caused by calcium precipitation.

    I ran too much GFO once and my PO4 dropped from 3.00 to .50 in one day. PO4 helps with the supersaturation of calcium, and if dropped too fast CA has nothing to bond to and it floats in your tank till it settles.

    Is this a possibility? Have you ran any type of phosphate removal?
     

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